Bernard and Alex discuss the news that after being an MSP since 1999, Nicola Sturgeon has announced that she will not stand for re-election at the next Scottish Parliament election.

Why has she done this?

A look back at her career

What does it mean for the SNP?

What was she like to work with?

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PART 2 of the Ponsonby and Massie Podcast interview with the First Minister, John Swinney

In his most in-depth and revealing interview since becoming Scotland's First Minister, John Swinney joins Bernard Ponsoby and Alex Massie:

FEAR FOR SURVIVAL OF THE SNP

* On Humza Yousaf resigning after the collapse of the Bute House agreement "If I go back to that period, which was really, really difficult, I feared for the stability of the government, I feared actually for the survival of the SNP, to be honest. I thought things were in such a bad place."

COLLEAGUE CRIED WHEN HE SAID HE'D STAND

* Recalling a colleague who shared his concerns "I said, well, I'm thinking about it [standing for First Minister] and they burst into tears".

CREDITS BLAIR GOVERNMENT ON CHILD POVERTY

* Swinney gives credit to Labour on Child Poverty "the achievements of the Blair Brown government, the first decade of this century really made an impact on eroding levels of child poverty in our society".

DEFINES HIS RELIGIOUS FAITH

* In a discussion about faith, the First Minister was asked "what does Jesus Christ mean to you personally?". He answered "the love of others, the love and service of others. That's what my Christian faith means to me..... I'd be perfectly happy to talk about that. I don't opt to go on to a podium to do so."

MAKES NO APOLOGIES ON FAMILY JOINING OFFICIAL ENGAGEMENTS

* On taking his family to official events "sometimes there's a bit of a hullabaloo about taking members of your family to particular occasions. I make no apology for it because if I didn't do that, I'd hardly see them."

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Part 1 of 2. In his most in-depth and wide ranging interview since becoming First Minister of Scotland, John Swinney joins Bernard and Alex.

• "I was exhausted" when Nicola Sturgeon stood down in 2023. My year out revitalised me and allowed me to become First Minister.
• If I'm elected as First Minister in 2026, I'll stand again in 2031.
• 2024 General Election was a "punishing defeat" delivered by people "disappointed in the SNP".
• The SNP government needs to rebuild trust by showing the electorate it is delivering.
• Independence will be in the manifesto and a referendum if there's the appetite.
• I have sympathy on Council Tax but won't re-value properties.

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Bernard and Alex chew over:

SECUIRTY CRISIS - NATO and Europe in a Security crisis as "strongmen" Trump and Putin carve up the geopolitical map.

GENDER - Last week's debate around gender issues and disagreements on the ability to debate them in the Scottish Parliament puts further pressure on First Minister, John Swinney, and the role of the Presiding Officer.

SCOTTISH LABOUR - With the Scottish Labour conference underway in Glasgow, what can Anas Sarwar do to stop the party tanking in the polls?

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Times journalist and co-author of a new book on the current Labour Government, Patrick Maguire, joins Bernard and Alex to discuss Keir Starmer and particularly the relationship with his Chief of Staff, Morgan McSweeney.

PATRICK MAGUIRE

ON McSWEENEY

"People say, ‘Why is this the Morgan McSweeney story with Keir Starmer as a supporting actor?’—because that’s what happened."

"Morgan McSweeney was doing this long before Keir Starmer began to think seriously about Labour politics."

"His polling showed, as early as 2017, that there was one person in the sweet spot to lead Labour: Keir Starmer."

"Morgan McSweeney recruits Keir Starmer. He picks Keir Starmer, not the other way around."

"McSweeney is seen by many in Labour as more important than Starmer himself—some say their ultimate loyalty is to him."

ON STARMER

"Keir didn’t start anywhere apart from vaguely progressive."

"He genuinely believes that if he can run things better, things will run more smoothly."

"His political formation, unusually for a leader of the Labour Party, has taken place in real time as Labour leader."

"Starmer is constantly defined by events and is something of a political opportunist."

"He is not thinking, ‘the political solution to this is X or Y’—he just takes advice and adapts."

"There is no such thing as Starmerism because Starmer abhors ideology—when the left accuse him of it, he is genuinely horrified."

"It’s remarkable that as late as 2022, Starmer needed outside advisors to ask, 'What is it you actually believe?'"

"You can bet against Keir Starmer, but often he will, despite himself, surprise you."

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1. “We survived this old man one time before, we'll survive him a second time around.” – Stewart McDonald on Ukrainian resilience against Putin and Trump
2. “This idea that their land can just be chopped up by Washington DC and the Kremlin in Moscow, over the heads of Ukraine, over the heads of Ukraine's neighboring allies in Poland and the Baltic States and the rest of European NATO, is something that horrifies them. But it's not something that necessarily surprises them.” – Stewart McDonald on Ukrainian fears of an imposed deal
3. “Trump sees this as a transaction, and a transaction is not a peace deal.” – Stewart McDonald on Trump's approach to Ukraine
4. “The real consequence of Trump's manoeuvres on Ukraine won't actually be Ukraine—because if they're not in the room, there won't be a deal—but he's risking in the process a whole series of transatlantic relationships.” – Bernard Ponsonby on the diplomatic fallout
5. “If Putin has his ear, and I think he has more than his ear, who knows what Trump will come out and impose in Ukraine?” – Stewart McDonald on the dangers of Trump’s relationship with Putin

1. “Putin’s long game is avenging Russia for its 1990s humiliation as he sees it.” – Alex Massie on Putin’s geopolitical ambitions
2. “Russia wants to sow, feed and cause as much chaos as possible. It’s not necessarily about getting you to think in a certain way—it just wants to throw so much stuff at you that people become confused, distrusting, and retreat into information vacuums.” – Stewart McDonald on Russia’s disinformation tactics
3. “This has been Trump's most successful week… sorry, I mean Putin’s most successful week in a while.” – Stewart McDonald on how recent events have played into Russia’s hands

1. “A huge wedge has now been driven between Europe and the US. I would go so far as to suggest that Article 5 is practically meaningless.” – Stewart McDonald on NATO’s weakening position
2. “If you lose the essential guarantor of Western security, and if the United States can no longer be considered a fully trustworthy actor or partner on the international stage, then you have an enormous vacuum at the heart of the international security apparatus.” – Alex Massie on the crumbling transatlantic alliance
3. “If we go back to the old rules of might is right, then not only will that be catastrophic in terms of loss of life, it will be far more financially expensive than making the investments in defence today.” – Stewart McDonald on the long-term risks of inaction
4. “Decades of conventional thinking on Western defence have been ripped up this week.” – Alex Massie on the impact of recent geopolitical events

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Alex and Bernard discuss the latest polls and fiscal challenges facing Labour so early in a new government.

Also, Trump continues to cut up the rule book in America and - what's it really like backstage at BBC Question Time.

📌 On Political Polls & SNP Strategy:

🗣️ "Do I believe any poll? No. All polls are a snapshot of opinion, but when a clear trend emerges, that’s when you have to take it seriously." – Bernard Ponsonby

🗣️ "The irony is that the SNP is doing relatively well just as they’ve stopped talking about independence." – Bernard Ponsonby

🗣️ "The question of a mandate for independence is no longer just about the number of seats—it’s about the percentage of the vote. And for that, Swinney has Nicola Sturgeon to thank." – Alex Massie

📌 On Labour’s Economic Problems:

🗣️ "Labour got into government and said, ‘Gosh, we’ve looked at the books and it’s all much worse than we thought.’ But despite that, all our pre-election promises remain good. There is an obvious tension here." – Alex Massie

🗣️ "The brutal reality for Scottish Labour is that they cannot control what happens in London. That is a problem." – Bernard Ponsonby

🗣️ "Labour has made the delivery of its economic plan virtually impossible because of pre-election promises. They will break a manifesto commitment on direct taxation. That’s my firm prediction." – Bernard Ponsonby

📌 On Trump’s America:

🗣️ "The Republican Party has ceased to operate like a democratic political party—it has become a cult." – Bernard Ponsonby

🗣️ "Trump isn’t behaving like a normal American president. He’s behaving like one of those Central Asian dictators who spend 80% of GDP on erecting a gold statue of themselves." – Alex Massie

🗣️ "If you campaign on ‘change,’ you have to be seen to be delivering change. That is something people are not feeling right now—certainly not in Scotland." – Alex Massie

📌 On Question Time & Political Dynamics:

🗣️ "Politicians have far more in common with each other behind the scenes than they let on in public." – Alex Massie

🗣️ "You don’t need Question Time—you just need the podcast." – Bernard Ponsonby

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Does Trump's "America First" start to his second term as US President, with trade wars, tough immigration policies, border controls and pulling back from international cooperation actually create an opportunity for the UK and Scotland?

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